Electric & Eclectic with Roger Atkins - LinkedIn Top Voice for EV
In conversation with the past, present, and future movers and shakers of the electric vehicle eco-system. Upstream in mining and mineral processing and downstream in batteries and charging infrastructures - and all points in between! I will draw on friendships and experiences from almost 40 years in the auto industry - almost half of that embedded within the nascent EV industry.
Failure and success are all part of my story...and that of many people I know. YOU will hear about it all.
Electric & Eclectic with Roger Atkins - LinkedIn Top Voice for EV
Turning The Tables on Imogen Bhogal
Hello and welcome to the Electric and Eclectic Podcast Show with Roger Adkins and some truly smart and amazingly interesting guests. Are you sitting comfortably? Then we'll begin.
Speaker 2:Imogen, welcome to EV Outlook HQ. Good job, there's only one of you, because it's not exactly huge, is it?
Speaker 3:Perfectly sized.
Speaker 2:I think we can say there's only one of you, because it's not exactly huge. Is it perfectly size? I think we can say good, good, well, look, I'd like to turn the tables. Normally, you're, um, on a shoot somewhere with somebody. You're doing a wonderful podcast. Love the one you recently did on charging infrastructure. Um, that was fantastic. Um, yeah, well, I think a lot of people agreed. I thought it was. That was really good. Um, so I'd like to turn the tables by way of interviewing you from finding out about a few things. How did you get here I don't mean today um, your 2025 outlook, with all that? You know a bit about fully charged live events because I really don't know how you do those three.
Speaker 2:You know they're three days of really intense stuff and you're on and off stage and all of those people. And then I'd like to understand a little bit more the kind of science or structure of how you go about making the work you do. You know, how do you, how do you select topics, how do you find the time to do research and do you script them or are they? Do you rely on that research and then just spontaneity? I'd love to know all of that. So that's the kind of quick half an hour chat.
Speaker 3:Okay, perfect.
Speaker 2:So how did you get here? You know what's your sort of background education. Is this something you've done recently or have you been at it since you left school and all that stuff?
Speaker 3:Well.
Speaker 3:So I think some people might think that my route's a bit of a meandering route, but in my head it makes a tremendous amount of sense.
Speaker 3:So I'm a mechanical engineer by education, so studied engineering at Oxford and really loved it, but I think the course certainly back then pretty theoretical, so it's very, very good at maths but less good as a sort of practical, hands-on engineer I'd say um.
Speaker 3:But that led me to work at Jaguar Land Rover, which I adored. I think the graduate scheme was perfect for me at the time that you could see how this behemoth organization works, how the sausage gets made, how these thousands of people come together to somehow make this incredible product it was. It was a really phenomenal experience and I spent a lot of time in the aerodynamics department and then some time in the design department, and I think the thing that really struck me during that time is that of course there's a technical decision to be made there, but so much is still about relationships still about understanding the context in which the automotive industry is operating and also constantly thinking about, well who is the end customer at the automotive industry is operating and also constantly thinking about, well, who is the end customer at the end of the day.
Speaker 3:So I think I was much better at talking about the industry than maybe doing some of the engineering, which is what led me to work in the comms department, specifically looking at future technology and innovation type stories. So I did a lot of stuff around autonomous vehicles, connected vehicles, the I-PACE. When it first came out, I had one of those.
Speaker 2:Yes, I know, loved it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, although now you're an IDBuzz owner, indeed but then moved on to now quite a controversial electric vehicle startup called Arrival, and I'm incredibly grateful for that experience because I was there at a really interesting time when we were starting to talk about electric vehicles as a you know society with a little bit more seriousness. Um, raising money back then was a little bit easier for the automotive industry and having those two experiences of super lean um nimble startup versus sort of slightly more legacy organization, it's so cool to be able to calibrate between those two experiences. But I think, in truth, throughout that time, I probably always had a dream of being a Blue Peter presenter and you know I'd come across the Fully Charged guys for many, many years, I think since the iPace, and I started to notice that there are a couple of comments on some youtube channel, some youtube videos, saying, oh, maybe you should get imogen in as a presenter and um who's that?
Speaker 2:friends and family, or what was that?
Speaker 3:well, I am convinced it was my husband. He promised it to me. It was not him, but anyway, there were like a few of those comments. I started to screenshot them and I pinged the most, dan. I was like do you think maybe we could chat and is there any scope to have you know someone with a slightly more technical background, uh, to join your cast presenters?
Speaker 3:so that was um four or five years ago, wow wow, how time flies when you're having fun well, I mean, this is it, and you know, the only giveaway is that when you look at videos from back then and now I've definitely aged a little bit. But fast forward to today and I generally talk about or cover some of our more sort of energy related episodes or our sort of technology related episodes and yeah, it's brilliant, and also I lead the production team now as well. Right, well, look, thank you, it's brilliant, and also I lead the production team now as well, right?
Speaker 2:Well, look, thank you for that answer and that really suggests to me you're the perfect guest for this electric and eclectic podcast, because that's a really eclectic background, if you like, and I can understand why from what you did at JLR that led on to Arrival and we're not going to get into Arrival because it's a different we've been there, done that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah you know, intriguing and all the other words. It might well be, but I can see how all of that then has nicely set you up to do what you've done now, as you say, for you know, nearly nearly five years, um, and you're very good at it, and and so again getting into some of the areas I want to talk about. In fact, let's do 2025 Outlook at the end, ok, because I think, then, some of what you're going to hopefully tell us informs some of that. So, fully charged live events. When's the next one, then?
Speaker 3:Well, so I should say we were fully charged live. At some point last year we rebranded to Everything Electric.
Speaker 2:Of course.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we have these live events across the world and our next one is in sydney, so that is at the start of march, and then, not long after that, we go to the london excel and it's really fascinating because, you know, throughout the world everyone is at slightly at a slightly different point with regards to electrification yeah appetites for electrification.
Speaker 3:You know, the automotive industry within each of those countries looks quite different as well, and also the sort of political forcing functions that are pushing electrification are quite different as well. So in australia, 60 of properties have solar uptake if you have it's absolutely huge, but of course it's a no-brainer. Yeah, so sunny, and if you can have a car that you can essentially charge for free, again that why wouldn't you?
Speaker 2:why wouldn't you, but the?
Speaker 3:distances are different and you know that presents different kinds of challenges. So it's a really, really exciting market and we have been so well received there. And you know, given its closer proximity to china than, say, here, they are receiving loads of chinese tvs, um, and there's so much sort of groundswell and excitement, so it's a really good show to be a part of yeah, so that that's the next one.
Speaker 2:As you say, you do them in europe, you do them in north america, america, usa and canada. Um, have you done one in China?
Speaker 3:No, we haven't, and I wonder whether maybe there's scope for that in the future. But I mean, they're an established EV market and they might look at us and think we don't need you.
Speaker 2:But who knows? Well, I don't know. And again, let's get into what the event is, because anyone who's listening or watching might not know. They're typically what two, three days? Are they all the same format in terms of time? Is it always three days? And you have, uh, on stage panels, you have a big exhibition, and obviously it's an opportunity for lots of people to network and meet each other. People can you're all totally accessible, which is lovely, um, so how is it then to do that for a few days? I mean, how blasted must you be come the end of it? You know how do you prepare for it. Like an athlete, you have to do training before you do you?
Speaker 3:know, go along it's so interesting because you know we do six of these a year. Um, I would take this for four years, so we've done quite a few shows and it's an incredible operation because our events team, who build the shows, organise the shows. They are phenomenal and so officious and I can't take any credit for the organisation of the shows. As the production team, we turn up, we moderate those panels and we film a lot of content whilst we're there, but the real credit goes to the events team. But we, we, you know, as you say, the first day tends to be a little bit more b2b. So there's loads of people from the industry, great opportunity to network, lots of people that we may have filmed with or interviewed or what have you. So lots of catching up to do there.
Speaker 2:There are test drives throughout the week that's a big part of it, isn't it?
Speaker 3:huge part of it and people who you know they've done a little bit of research. It's just a really convenient place for them to come because they can get into, you know, maybe 10 or 15 different evs, test, drive them back to back, make that really stark comparison and then speak to the expert and make purchase that's a.
Speaker 2:That's a very good point and I think and not to besmirch dealers, but I think if you can do that back to back comparisons of different vehicles, which is pretty difficult to do you have to spend a few weekends doing that yeah, you can condense it into an hour or two. That that's. That's great. And um, it's a hybrid, because I think most people we all know this now want to do most of the stuff online yeah so yeah, no, I, I get that.
Speaker 2:I mean, is that, is that a growing part of the show? I mean the test drive thing.
Speaker 3:It's a really, really critical part of the show, I think, because lots of people may have seen the reviews on our channel or various other channels. They kind of have a sense of what might be in their hypothetical shopping basket. They'll have done their research around what going electric means. They'll come to the show and learn more about that through the panel discussions and what have you, and then, at the point that they get into those test drives, they they're ready to buy.
Speaker 3:yeah so it's sort of that final step in the dance and that means that those, those oems and those car companies, they really recognize the value. Um. So it's a huge part of the show, but I think the other bit that's super important is the sort of exhibition that showcases other electrification technologies as well.
Speaker 2:And I thought, given the used market used car market I think in probably almost every country is times two, three, four, five the size of the new market. Do you do stuff with used EVs?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we have done and I think you know it's something that we also cover on the show and I'm unsure how they sort of feed into what's on display on the show. But I'd be pretty surprised if we're not also capturing used EV markets. Good, good.
Speaker 2:So right here's the thing you have, this incredible library of research of. It's hard to describe it, in a way, because there's so much of it and and it's so comprehensive. Um, how do you select topics? You know, when you're saying next week we're doing this, or in a few months we're doing that, how do you do that? How do you scope all of that? How does that begin? Have you got a big yearly planner or something? How does it work?
Speaker 3:well, so I'm now picturing our production schedule, which probably takes us four months into the future. So we're pretty we know pretty much what we're doing for the next four months or so. Um, and that choice of how we select content, it really really really depends. There are so many different factors. So, when it comes to cars, we think we understand our audience reasonably well and we know that things that are below the 60k mark, and specifically anything that exists between 20 and 30k, is our real sweet spot.
Speaker 3:People want to go electric and they want to be able to do that in an accessible way. People want to go electric and they want to be able to do that in an accessible way. So anything that kind of speaks that slightly more affordable segment recognizing that you know that is still an expense is something that we really really try and focus on. Um, but when it comes to some of our other topics, this is where it's a little bit more of a dark art and we we span quite a lot of different topics as well, which makes it a bit challenging. So anything that allows people to make a sustainable change now and that they can implement themselves, those things tend to to work really well. So again, anything that is affordable can work.
Speaker 3:On a retrofit, for example, um is available in the market today. That is received really well. But then when we can get into these deeper dive topics, it's sort of that gives us, I think, a broader scope to look at, say, the history of solar panels and what's happening. What's going to be the next frontier of efficiency in solar panels, say. So that's not really a concrete answer, but it is sort of. We constantly are talking to loads and loads of people. We're constantly looking at the analytics on our youtube platform, constantly listening to people and really trying to identify and spot those trends that that people care about yeah, and you know listening to you describe all of that um.
Speaker 2:So, by way of the research you know, scoping that work, getting a good mix, keeping the attention there with people bringing fresh technology and new ideas, you're almost kind of doing due diligence, so you could describe it of um novel technologies, um startups, all those sort of people. I mean I could imagine that a lot of what you've got is a tremendous resource for anyone looking to to invest in this growing everything electric world um, so, so yeah, that that's definitely just come into my mind.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking, wow, you, wow, you, personally, you know very well equipped. Sorry about that, that's all right. Take a phone call in the middle of doing this. That's stopped. Yeah, so you now must have a real sense of what's next, which, okay, I did want to ask you about scripting these events.
Speaker 2:So let's just quickly talk about that. Then we're going to do 2025, because I think it it feeds into what you just said. So do you script them? So you do your research, you turn up with a crew, you get all the cameras set up and everything. Is it then spontaneous or is it scripted?
Speaker 3:oh, good question. Okay, there's sort of three different approaches. I would say so. The podcast, that's our forum to get into things in really kind of nitty gritty detail. And the way that I visualize those in my head is that imagine that you've got, you know, you're on a website and you open one dropdown menu and you've got a set of options and you can kind of see which direction you could go in. And then you open the drop down menu and the next one, and the next one, and you kind of take the discussion to see how far down the drop down menus you want to go. So you always have these way points of well, these are the sorts of things that I want to cover, but the best interviews I find the ones where you're just so actively listening that the next question becomes quite obvious in the way that you guide that conversation right.
Speaker 3:Um, I think you know to make the spokesperson feel confident, normally we will go back with an initial set of questions of. These are the sorts of things that we'll we'll try and speak to, um, but they tend to be slightly less scripted. Um, with something that's quite technical. So, for example, we did an episode on pair of sky solar cells with oxford pv. There was a lot of technical detail in there and we want to ensure that we get that right, so we probably have to write a script that's about 75 complete to ensure that we're we're accurate. And also, you know, often there's loads of components to the shoot day and we have to ensure that we capture it all.
Speaker 3:Such that the editors can make something, but you always want to allow that scope, for well, there's something that we maybe didn't foresee, or a nugget comes out that we're like we absolutely need to capture that. So we have that sort of 25% spontaneity, right. But then when it comes to the car reviews reviews I think that's where we can have much more fun. Of course, there are, you know, the basic details that we need to ensure that that we capture, but so much of it is is so subjective, it's how it feels, your initial opinions, and in that sense, there's lots more freedom to be infinitely more spontaneous well, I mean, I'm I'm thinking what can I pick up from that?
Speaker 2:how can I do what I do better, etc. Because, to be can I be honest with you, I kind of think I over rely on spontaneity and I I tell myself that's a good thing, but I think it's mainly because I'm a bit lazy in terms of planning, you know, because I think planning a structure just as you've described, but I wonder if it's a confidence thing, because sometimes we prepare or you know I.
Speaker 3:But I wonder if it's a confidence thing, because sometimes we prepare or you know I will script something and it's not used, but then I know I've got that fall back, just in case yeah, no, I.
Speaker 2:You hear a lot of people who appear to be spontaneous, sort of describe what you just said. They've meticulously planned and that's like their safety net yeah, I can walk across the tight rope. They don't fall off, but because they know the safety nets there, then they just whiz across. You know, and yeah, that makes sense, yeah, that makes sense and with panel discussions for example.
Speaker 3:I feel my favorite panel discussions to moderate are the ones where you you ensure that, say, you've got four panelists, that that panel discussion is split completely evenly between those four. But it actually becomes slightly self-moderating and your role there has to be, you know, you know when you go bowling and you can put the ramps at the side and you just gently nudge them every so often if you need to, but largely it's sort of slightly taking care of itself, yeah and um, but yes, having that sort of bank of safety net questions, you can do that with a bit more confidence and being a bit more present in that discussion, because you're not thinking, oh my god, I do not know what to say next.
Speaker 2:Where will I go from here? Yeah, no, no that's good.
Speaker 3:Oh, is it so you're? Carrying sleep mode okay, but I think it was still going, yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2:Um, I've got the other camera anyway. So, thinking about 2025, you mentioned a few things in in those answers there. Um, certainly going to a show, certainly car reviews. I saw you filming, actually, the reno 5. Um official launch. Yeah, back at um, geneva, geneva 2024 the last geneva show goodness me very sad, but you know, some might say inevitable nonetheless.
Speaker 2:So you're filming that car. The thing that struck me about that, apart from it's lovely in so many ways, was the fact that it's this kind of not luxury car segment, sort of medium car segment. Um, that's got vehicle to grid capability on it, yeah, for 2025. We keep hearing people and you've done some great episodes on it talk about bi-directional charging and all of that. Might that could liberate. Is it happening this year?
Speaker 3:well, hot off the press. Actually not that hot off the press. It was announced in november 2024, australia is going to be the best market to officially sort of switch it off. Yeah, I knew this all right yeah, so we're filming an episode, um, or one of our presenters who's based out in adelaide is filming an episode on a company called v2 grid australia, and they're one of the first approved chargers that are bi-directional compatible right so no question is not to say that that's going to turn on.
Speaker 3:It's going to be really easy because there's still loads of questions around the software updates that's required from because you've got an ID buzz yeah which technically, from a hardware perspective, should be bi-directional compatible it is, it is, yeah, it's in the menu. Yeah, but it still needs the software to be able to do it, I think.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's a question of is it AC or DC? Bi-directional charging. That's a big one. Second thing is there's something I understand called country codes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, grid codes all that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not quite sure what that actually means. But to cut to the chase, I think there are four or five different aspects now that just need to be kind of aligned, agreed, that kind of then have to be sequenced and then sort of pulled together. But can we deliver bidirectional charging? Yes, are we doing it now at scale? No, but you just said Australia is kicking on with it. Yeah, and I think you know said Australia is kicking on with it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think you know Australia is a really interesting market because, once again, it's so huge, so deploying great long transmissions cables is not necessarily the most effective thing to do, but then that's where vehicle-to-grid could genuinely have an amazing impact. In that grid stabilisation, making sure that you're capturing that intermittent renewable energy during the day and using it during the night, etc. Etc. The use case is so clear. But, exactly as you described, there are some really, really critical stakeholders in this the car companies, the electricity providers, the national grid, the distribution networks, the charging companies.
Speaker 3:And the consumer and the consumer, yeah, and for this to work every you know these six consumer, six stakeholders that we now have they all need to see the value in doing it yeah and I feel like it's a bit of an abstract concept for people because it's starting to think of electricity as this sort of unit that we could trade.
Speaker 3:It becomes a bit like data, for example, and changing the mindset around how that unit moves and what who's in, what's in it for each stakeholder. I feel like that's the bit that sort of needs to fall into place and have that aha moment yeah, it's like there's going to be a new pie yeah and who's going to get the slices of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly yeah, okay, I get that.
Speaker 2:So 2025 we already know this is going to be a terrifying year oh, very good, very good I heard it from somewhere else, I can't remember now, so well, not original, kind of fess up, uh, but we can clearly see that's what's going to happen. We've got then the zev mandates. We've got the increase in the uk, I think, up to 28 percent. You know stuff going on in europe elections going on in Europe, challenges in Germany and France, or whatever. What's your sense of what this year is going to be? Because that's a lot of mixed up stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's sort of. So. We recently released that episode called well, internally we called it Top Tech 2025. I think probably more accurate to describe it as trends that we're keeping an eye on in 2025. And in there is, of course, this I think I got the line in as tiffs on tariffs remain contentious, and I was very pleased about that. That sounded good, um, but irrespective of all of that gubbins, of which there is lots, and there is so much uncertainty, I think the thing that gives me optimism is that so power, so cheap. Yeah, we're talking more about data centers which, however you think about ai and whatever data centers, require electricity and they will make the case for renewables very very abundantly.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:With more renewables and more affordable electric vehicles coming onto the market, the case for electrification makes more sense as well. So there's all these things where you know again, irrespective of how you feel politically about the environment or tariffs or whatever, the economic case for these things sort of speaks for itself.
Speaker 3:Yes for these things sort of speaks for itself.
Speaker 3:Yes, um, but I think, at the same time, that requires this continued effort for diversification, both in terms of range of solutions and the geographies in which they're coming from, to ensure that we have that resilience. Um, and actually, you know, everyone is benefiting from this electrification transition. Um, you know, a fact that I've read is that we're going to become the strait of malacca is going to become very, very congested, because so many of these clean energy technologies are going to have to travel through it, through the supply chain, and at the same time, you've got this huge untapped resource in in africa, which receives so little of any kind of investment and yet has so many of the resources that we need and such an opportunity to transform the grid and support its economic development in various different countries. So I think that's a very long-winded way of saying I think the economic case hopefully makes these technologies speak for themselves. And and two, I hope that other countries continue to benefit from the deployment of these technologies and that we see that diversification.
Speaker 2:Wow, I love the fact you mentioned Africa and watch this space because I know a few people busy in that extraordinary place. You know massive continent full of these unbelievable countries and sub-Saharan Africa, obviously very different to what we're seeing now emerging in Morocco, of course in regards to batteries and whatever.
Speaker 1:That's quite fascinating.
Speaker 2:So you're optimistic-ish.
Speaker 3:I am actively trying to be optimistic.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:I think I've said this to you before. I'm a diehard radio 4 fan and I have thought recently that maybe radio 4, in light of all the things that are going on in the world, isn't the thing that should wake me up with my alarm, and maybe I should have radio 2 for at least 45 minutes yeah, I think so but yes, actively optimistic yeah, good, well, look, thank you.
Speaker 2:And thank you for answering my questions.
Speaker 2:I love the occasion that I get to work with you or with Rob or with others, and if I can just sum up something that I remember Robert saying oh, it must be a good number of years ago now.
Speaker 2:We were having a chat I think we filmed it, I think it was on camera, actually, so I'm not making it up and he said uh, we're talking more about, um, economic than eco, less about ecology and more about economics. That isn't to say we're detracting or moving away from the ambition of tackling climate change and all the other stuff, but what it is saying is that for consumers and businesses and investors alike, much of this shift has to be predicated on on a reality check that says can we make money doing it? Yeah, I think shameful in that, because that's the reality. You know, we all live our lives in a way in which you know the family presents its own ability to pay its way every month, pay the bills, et cetera, and you have to balance your principles and objectives with the reality of doing that. I mean, it's a very long-winded way of saying we just need to make sure that changing the world also includes giving people value for money.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you know I've got to tell you this because this was I'm very intrigued to see how this podcast that I'm about to talk about will perform, because I found it deeply interesting, and I think this is sometimes where I fall down and that I'll choose a topic where I'm like well, I'm deeply fascinating. Will the rest of the world? Yeah, and sometimes they'll do a well, maybe not.
Speaker 3:That wasn't quite so interesting, but, um, I interviewed an amazing man called chris case and he's cto at oxford pv, developing periscope solar panels yeah but he has been working on photovoltaics since the 60s, wow, and so you know his um phd supervisor had worked on the solar panels that went on. You know, the very first solar panels that went into space wow, wow.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So he has this encyclopedic knowledge of how solar PV technology has unfolded and why it unfolded. So in this podcast we travelled back to 1873, where the photovoltaic effect was first sort of discovered, blimey, and then to I think it was 1884, where the first solar PV was sort of made. It was made from selenium. It was 0.5 efficient. It was terrible. Up to today where suddenly we have this new theoretical limit of the efficiency of solar panels of 43 because of things like periscope.
Speaker 3:And it's interesting that that's 140 years or so of history and yet the economic case has only just sort of started to make sense in the past, sort of you know 20 years, say yeah, and prior to that it was sort of butting up against the fact that oil was so cheap. And there's this huge sort of political impetus to to maintain the oil industry. And I say all of that because I think you know 140 years of technical innovation. But happening at the same time is that economic case and the political will to do this had to happen at the same time there's things to coalesce, for this to deploy at scale, and yeah, I think it.
Speaker 2:It gives me a lot of uh optimism of why research is so important, but also why we have to think about these things in a really multifaceted way as well I love the fact you've just referenced that story because I think that exemplifies what I believe is now starting to emerge, which is that people are coupling the practical reality, reality, the economic challenge, with the technical capability. They're marrying those far better than ever before. And whether we want to accept it or not which to me would be bizarre if people don't it's China that's really liberated these photovoltaic proposition, because they've managed to do it at scale, and whether they subsidized it heavenly unfairly, whatever way you want to look at it to get there, it's an it's. It's been the liberator for everybody else. So you know understanding what is it about that? Does it have to be subsidy or is it about technical innovation? Or is it about a different way of managing the financial perspective?
Speaker 2:Because I talk to investors and various organizations that some look at getting a return on investment 12 months, some look at it over seven years and just getting that sense of how can you be short-term, mid-term, long-term, how risk-averse are you? Do you really understand that cadence of progress and development change? You've you've alluded to that wonderfully well in that last point, so I don't want to blab on anymore and anyway, this is your podcast, not mine. Um, thank you so much. I think what we should do at some point is play some guitars, because we've got guitars in here, so we might do that as an outro of some description. Um, but for now, thank you for coming to the office. Good luck for 2025. Thanks so much. Give my regards to the rest of the fully charged team and um. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Uh, imogen, see you again oh, see you soon, thank you thanks for listening to the show and make sure you you follow Roger on LinkedIn, where you'll discover almost all there is to know about the spectacular electric vehicle revolution.
