Electric & Eclectic with Roger Atkins - LinkedIn Top Voice for EV
In conversation with the past, present, and future movers and shakers of the electric vehicle eco-system. Upstream in mining and mineral processing and downstream in batteries and charging infrastructures - and all points in between! I will draw on friendships and experiences from almost 40 years in the auto industry - almost half of that embedded within the nascent EV industry.
Failure and success are all part of my story...and that of many people I know. YOU will hear about it all.
Electric & Eclectic with Roger Atkins - LinkedIn Top Voice for EV
Spearheading Sustainable Batteries: Insights from the Global Battery Alliance
Can batteries really drive the green energy revolution? Join me as Inga Peterson, Executive Director of the Global Battery Alliance (GBA), explains how she's leading the charge to ensure sustainable battery supply chains. From her shift from international security to spearheading initiatives crucial for the green energy transition, Inga brings a wealth of experience and passion to our discussion. We tackle the foundational goals of the GBA, emphasising the need for collaboration across industries, NGOs, and governments to address the pressing challenges in mineral production and the global battery industry's current imbalances.
What does it take to certify a sustainable battery? Uncover the intricacies of developing a sustainability certification framework, akin to certifications in the food industry, but focused on batteries. We dive into the challenges of traceability and reporting within the cobalt and lithium value chains, addressing critical issues like child labor and carbon footprints. Discover how establishing these certifications can transform the marketplace, creating benefits for consumers, investors, and public procurement officials. We highlight transparent carbon footprint assessments as a path to business efficiencies and advocate for a harmonized approach that uplifts all stakeholders.
Electric vehicles are on the rise, but how can we ensure their success? In our final discussions, we explore the strategies behind winning consumer support for EVs. From creating appealing products that stand on their own merits to building resilient and diversified value chains, we cover it all. The concept of a "race to the top" in sustainability standards emerges as a key driver of innovation and improvement. We also emphasize the importance of integrating economic viability with business sustainability, encouraging companies to take proactive steps toward a greener future. Stay connected with us for more insights and upcoming events focused on responsible mining and sustainable practices.
The organization was founded as a result of a twin realization back in 2017. One batteries were going to play a central role for the green energy transition to meet our targets under the Paris Agreement, as they relate to electrification of transport and power sectors, particularly.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the Electric and Eclectic podcast show with Roger Adkins and some truly super smart and amazingly interesting guests.
Speaker 1:But with that. Obviously there's also inevitable impacts. You know you do need to produce the minerals to feed those gigafactories, to produce all of these batteries to meet the demand. Are you sitting comfortably? Then we'll begin.
Speaker 3:Going to be talking about arguably my favourite subject at the moment, and, in truth, the name of the organisation I'm going to be talking to Inga Peterson about is like a hat trick of words that I love Global, battery and alliance. What's not to like about each of those three words? But put them together, and this is an organisation I'm very intrigued about now. So, inga Peterson, how are you? Good morning, good afternoon. Wherever you are in the world, you're the executive director of this intriguing organisation. Yeah, welcome, tell me a bit about you, you first. How are you involved in batteries?
Speaker 1:thanks, roger. Thanks for this opportunity to share a bit about our work. I love the intro. I think I'm going to use that next time I speak about the global battery alliance. Indeed, what's not to love?
Speaker 1:Um, I am actually not a battery person at all, so I got into this field in a roundabout way. My background is in international affairs and I had focused specifically on international security as it links to the management of natural resources, so natural resource-based conflicts that we have seen in the past, but also how natural resources and their value chains can be a platform for collaboration between actors. So this was the sort of academic approach to the topic and I then went into the field of mineral resource governance. I worked a lot in producing countries, specifically in Africa, but also Afghanistan, mongolia on putting governance frameworks in place for the mining sector. So how can producing countries get better dividends from their natural resource wealth? How can we strengthen governance institutions? You know, putting in place mineral cadastral systems, et cetera.
Speaker 1:So I spent a fair bit of time at the coal phase of mineral production and the challenges that we face there, and I then took that after a few years to the World Economic Forum to work with mining and metals companies on the role that they play as we move into more sustainable supply chains, more sustainable value chains and circular economy models, for example. And this is also where the Global Battery Alliance was born. A little bit after my time, I had moved on to the UN Environment Programme, but the Global Battery Alliance is born exactly from that realisation. How do we foster collaboration across stakeholder groups, so industry, non-governmental organisations, academia and host governments, but also across the value chain and, in this case, for batteries to have better outcomes, to better manage impacts and risks.
Speaker 3:Ultimately, Wow, Wow. Let me tell you something, Inga. If I was interviewing you for this job and you first said I'm not really involved in mining, then you just said what you just said.
Speaker 3:I'd just say you've got the job. I think they did say that. Yeah, well, I can understand that, obviously, but I think the fact you know international affairs, you know resources, responsible mining, in effect, everything you just described there in terms of your background, knowledge and experience in Africa, mongolia, afghanistan experience in Africa, mongolia, afghanistan Wow, I don't know everybody in the world who does, but of the people that I do know, hearing your background explained, as you just shared that with us, you've said so much just in that explanation of your experience. So let's talk about this for a minute. Why do I think those three words float my boat global, battery and alliance. You don't need me to tell you, but anyone listening to this might not know.
Speaker 3:We have an imbalance of where batteries are made. We have a dramatic imbalance in that fact, but also the supply chain of it, the critical minerals that come out of the ground and then how they're processed, how they're turned into the materials that then can be used in a gigafactory to make batteries. We have quite a challenge in how that has emerged over the last couple of decades. Quite a challenge in how that has emerged over the last couple of decades. So global is a perspective I really, really like. Do you want to say something in that regard, about how you know we kind of haven't got a global industry at the moment. We've got an Asia-dominated battery industry. Do you want to talk a bit about that, inga? I don't know in what fashion, but whatever you want to say, Sure.
Speaker 1:Maybe I look at it a little bit in terms of the evolution of our membership, because in the beginning, the Global Battery Alliance was founded by companies across the value chain, so that included obviously the mining companies, some cell manufacturers, but mainly also car manufacturers, the automotive OEMs, as well as civil society organizations, ngos and host governments. And it was really the organization was founded as a result of a twin realization back in 2017. One, batteries were going to play an essential role for the green energy transition for to meet our targets under the Paris agreement, as they relate to electrification of transport and power sectors particularly so we were going to likely see exponential growth of this industry, which in 2017 was still somewhat of a fringe industry. So we had forecast a tenfold growth. Now we're closer to, I think, 17% growth of this industry. But with that, obviously there's also inevitable impacts. You know you do need to produce the minerals to feed those gigafactories to produce all of these batteries to meet the demand. So back in 2016, certain organizations were already looking at critical minerals for batteries, specifically cobalt, and the human rights issues associated with that.
Speaker 1:So the realization of these founding members was you know, these problems are too complex for a single stakeholder alone to resolve.
Speaker 1:You know, the car manufacturer cannot resolve this alone, the mining company cannot, the host government cannot in many cases.
Speaker 1:So it requires this collective action.
Speaker 1:But at the same time it's also essential that we do solve these issues to be able to scale this industry within environmental, social and governance guardrails.
Speaker 1:And in the beginning we had actually very little participation from Asian manufacturers, from Asian manufacturers.
Speaker 1:But over the years, as we've started putting forward our concepts most notably, of course, the battery passport, a digital product passport for batteries, to first of all bring transparency to the value chains and the impacts, because we cannot measure or manage what we cannot measure but over the years we've seen a real uptick in engagement from asian manufacturers. So we're now our membership now represents um over over 80 percent market share for ev batteries actually um, and I I would take that as a really encouraging sign that this is becoming also a global effort and that sustainability is not just nice to have but it's becoming business critical as a differentiator in this market. You know, with all of the geopolitical and macroeconomic context that we have and that is obviously rapidly evolving, and of course the EU battery regulation was a major driver in that as well that you know, companies wanting to import their product into the EU market would have to, in any case, comply with certain minimum requirements when it comes to due diligence and battery carbon footprint declarations, for example.
Speaker 3:You put all this so nicely and succinctly and picking up a few things here, then what gets measured gets done. Could it be? Would it be fair to say that maybe prior to 2017, you know, go back to any point you want. We weren't really measuring the ESG aspects of things. Mining has been around for hundreds of years. You know one way or the other and the material world we live in. We've been digging stuff up cobalt for the longest time. It's not an electric vehicle thing and, and you know, I can't level any kind of specific criticism at the mining industry for two reasons One, I don't know it well enough, and two, I think that would be a bit unfair and ungracious. But now that we are measuring ESG criteria, how quickly do you think innovation technology, just general business practice, will improve to ensure that what's that phrase people use build back better, build back green that we really do that? It's not just a cliche, it's not just a sort of you know mantra, um, are you seeing people demonstrably making radical improvements to, to, to do the right thing?
Speaker 1:That's a really good question. Thanks, roger. I think there's several elements to this. First of all, there isn't really a single mining industry, right, there are companies who have been pushing for, have actively been pushing for best practices and who are operating to high standards and voluntary standards and mandatory standards when it comes to responsible sourcing and environmental and social and community impacts, for example. And then there's other companies, maybe less so, and those are typically the ones that also, you know, harm and tarnish the reputation of the entire, you know sector, as it were. But that's the first observation.
Speaker 1:Then the second one is that I would say that the mining companies have been exposed to the requests for more sustainable practices for a very long time because they're dealing, you know, at the front line with affected communities community to be resettled, or there's air pollution or noise pollution. This can very quickly turn into, you know, a business imperative to resolve these issues in order to continue your operations. You know this is called in the industry to secure the social license to operate. So are you being tolerated or, you know, considered a positive contributor in the community that you're operating in, that actually, you know, lives on top of these resources, as it were? So that's one element, I think, in the mining industry. We've seen very good initiatives there already.
Speaker 1:But then the other question is how do you bring the midstream along? Because the impacts, they don't stop actually at the mining sector. So how do you bring the whole manufacturing process up to the same standards? Because the car manufacturers, they're the ones who have to sell the product and they have to give their consumers confidence that you know this product has not triggered any adverse impacts, whether it comes to human rights or environmental impacts, and that they can buy it in good conscience. So they're interested in that consumer facing element. The mining companies have the imperative, you know, to secure their social license to operate, but the midstream has traditionally not been very exposed to these concepts.
Speaker 1:And this is where you know concepts like the digital product passport can have a massive positive impact and, first of all, just bringing transparency to the supply chain. If you're looking at the battery as a product and if you're looking at the multitude of critical materials that ends up in this product, you're looking at, you know, countless jurisdictions. You know whether your lithium comes from Argentina and your cobalt from the DRC. Where does your nickel from Indonesia? So you know you're looking at such a complex product with such complex global supply chains that that first important step is the transparency product with such complex global supply chains, that that first important step is the transparency. And I do think traceability is one of the enabling factors that brings that transparency to the value chains in a first instance. So that you need to first of all find out who do I need to ask the difficult questions to you know if you're a vehicle manufacturer, for example?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, Now look, there's an awful lot in there that you've just described. I'm not saying it's just principle, but it is ambition, it's principle, it's a strategic approach. What about the practicalities? What about the people on the ground to deliver this traceability? Have we got yet any form of across the board analysis tool that allows us to measure apples with apples? Because you know, in a lot of industries you get different companies coming into the market saying we'll measure this and deliver you that certificate, and so on and so forth. To the market saying we'll measure this and deliver you that certificate, and so on and so forth. How cohesive and international are we getting with a lot of the things you referenced there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is exactly where the GBA comes in in terms of the niche and the need that we see to have this collaborative platform, this collaborative action platform that we've created Because, you know, we now do see regulatory requirements for digital product passports and we see a burgeoning market. You know of solution providers who will, you know, offer their services to battery manufacturers, to car manufacturers, to provide them, you know, with traceability and with statements about the sustainability performance. There will be some non-negotiable criteria driven by the regulation, such as the battery carbon footprint declaration, but there are many, many elements, when it comes to salient risks and impacts, where there is not a harmonized framework at all. So this is where the Global Battery Alliance actually started to say, you know, using our multi-stakeholder constituencies of civil society, industry, government, public sector organizations, let's first of all define, you know, what does good sustainability performance actually mean for battery?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you know what are the salient risks and you know there's some that are obvious, but there's others that might be less obvious, such as, you know, contributions to local economic development or, you know, responsible engagement with artisanal mining sector, because typically these value chains you know leaning towards, you know large scale industrial mining, but actually supply from the artisanal sector is significant into the battery. You know critical minerals supply chains. So how do you responsibly engage with that? You know what are the applicable standards, et cetera. So that was the starting point of the GBA to say what are, first of all, the salient risks and then how do we create a framework for globally harmonized performance expectations? Where do we want the industry to perform at a minimum? And many of them are already there. But also, let's chart out what is the level of aspiration. Where do we want companies ideally to get to when it comes to adhering to best practices across their supply chain? And this is obviously where NGOs are coming in, you know, with their level of expectations. You know, from indigenous people's rights to, you know, biodiversity to forced labor, due diligence really covering the full spectrum. And what we would like to have for the companies is to have a sort of low threshold for participation, so you don't need to have all the answers. But starting to ask some of these questions about your supply chain, you know, is the beginning. But ultimately we also give you this trajectory of continuous improvement if you want to enhance your performance and your footprint, as it were.
Speaker 1:This is the framework against which we will benchmark you, with the ultimate objective to issue a certification, basically for batteries. So you will know this sort of sustainability certification from other sectors. It's quite prevalent in food, in the food industry, for example. You see, you know certifications on coffee products or chocolate. So essentially this is what we're trying to recreate for batteries. Just it is tremendously more complex, given the supply chain and just the multiplicity of the materials involved.
Speaker 1:But we do believe it's possible and we have already successfully piloted this with our members to first of all establish traceability for cobalt and lithium value chains, but then to integrate that with consistent reporting against these performance expectations as they relate to child labor, due diligence, human rights and battery carbon footprint, so that we can have differentiated products and ultimately contribute to creating a marketplace where products can compete based on their sustainability footprint and not just on costs or manufacturing history alone.
Speaker 1:So who actually produces the lowest carbon battery, but then in the future, who produces the battery that uses the least amount of water, for example? So there's other dimensions to measuring this and we want to create this framework for companies, you know, to compete on those metrics and also to get rewarded for the efforts that they're already making, because there's so many voluntary standards. So, instead of turning the EU battery regulation, battery passport requirement into a compliance exercise where there's yet more boxes to tick but it doesn't help them in the marketplace, how do we incentivize this? Through a sustainability certification that will give know good scores for their efforts so that they can differentiate their products based on this again.
Speaker 3:So much in what you've just. I've been making notes as you've been speaking to come back with a couple of questions. But on that last point, reward and recognition for the people that are doing it the right way how's that going to work? You kind of mentioned what. When did you mention coffee, chocolate, bananas, increasingly?
Speaker 3:As a consumer, you get a choice. There's this responsibly sourced, looking after the farmer thing and all that stuff and you make a choice. You make a decision as a consumer. You think OK, and typically it costs a bit more. But you think no, I want to be able to get bananas in five years, 10 years time. I don't want to feel bad that some farmer's being exploited in a coffee plantation, whatever. Do you really see the consumer around energy storage and electric vehicles behaving in a similar way? You get what's that fancy word? Is it bifurcation, that thing where the people that have bothered to make the right investment get recognized and rewarded and those that either chose not to or are a bit slow? That you know How's it going to work is a simple question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a very good question. So I think the consumer is a really important part in this equation, but it is far from the only constituency who holds leverage here. So I think for the end consumer you know we're still some way off price parity between internal combustion engines and EVs payoff price parity between internal combustion engines and EVs. So I think the readiness to sort of pay a premium for more sustainable batteries might be a little bit mitigated today, you know, for people to actually want to pay even more if they're already, you know, having to, maybe, you know, pay a premium for this choice to buy an EV, at least at the point of purchase. But there's other levers for whom this is, you know, maybe even more relevant.
Speaker 1:And I'm thinking specifically around procurement and investors, because you know, right now, if we're talking to investors, you know there's obviously some frameworks in terms of ESG reporting and risks, but none of them are necessarily tailored towards battery value chains. So what we're seeing is that most of these investors, whether it's institutional investors or private investors, are actually recreating or devising their own frameworks to assess risks and impacts for their investments in the battery value chain, in the absence of a harmonized framework of what are the saline risks and impacts and how can they be measured? And then the other element is public procurement. So we've been talking a fair bit, for example, with the city of Oslo. So you see large scale contracts for procurement of EV bus fleets. For example, they're trying to mainstream minimum criteria for the sustainability performance of those batteries. And these are large, large contracts, you know, because a lot of this procurement obviously happens at the municipal level. So there's maybe not even government, central government guidance on this. So these entities are actually looking for harmonized criteria even more than in consumer.
Speaker 1:And I think the main potential of the battery passport is that you could have different interfaces for different groups, for different entities. So the end consumer may only want a sort of generic stamp of approval. I can buy this battery and be pretty sure that there's no child labor associated with this product. But a public procurement official or, you know, an investor may want a more disaggregated picture of how this value chain performs. Yes, it's also the clear business case for it, right? So if we're looking at carbon footprint for example, typically you know if you have hotspots in terms of the carbon emissions across the production process, that also points to inefficiencies in terms of energy use. So if you have a clearer picture of the carbon footprint and how it's calculated across the value chain, this also gives you insights into where you can create more efficiencies, just from sheer business principles and logic, as it were.
Speaker 3:Again, your answers are so detailed, so detailed. I'm not used to this. I mean no, no, it's, it's great. Listen, listen. I'm sure anyone listening is is equally going to be making the sort of notes, uh, I'm making.
Speaker 3:I hadn't thought about that point of, um, you know, fleet acquisition, um, whether it's, you know, government purchase or local authority purchase, they are more honor bound to do it correctly in their kind of procurement process rather than maybe individual consumers. So I can see a journey here where, if you like, the lead player in this that is then actively rewarding the responsible people does the right thing, if I can put it like that, and then that just helps the momentum towards encouraging more and more of the right things being done by people and recognizing that investment. And you make a good point also about carbon content and efficiency. You know driving down the cost of a lot of this and certainly reducing the carbon footprint. It's essential. Otherwise why are we bothering? Why are we going through this monumental shift to new energy and new mobility if the net result is going to be not much of a difference in terms of reducing carbon? I mean, it's supposed to be an urgent quest that we're all on, and if we're kidding ourselves that we're doing it right, but we're not, because your point right at the beginning what gets measured gets done If we're not forensically measuring this.
Speaker 3:The people that accuse EVs of being just some bloody game that's being played and not really making any difference, well, they're right. So we have to be doing this better all the time. A couple of quick questions, structural ones how is the Global Battery Alliance funded? How do you avoid having some sort of influence because of how it's funded, for example? And how are you agnostic in terms of geopolitics, any particular technology, etc. I know that's a few questions, but I suppose let me ask the beginning one. You know, how does it work, how are you funded and how do you keep your independence?
Speaker 1:so we're a membership-based organization, um, our corporate members are subject to membership fees, annual membership fees, and basically currently we're funded through these membership fees exclusively. So we we're not yet receiving any third party funding, but we are looking at diversifying that, you know, in the future to be able to scale faster. In terms of preserving our independence, we have multi-stakeholder governance, so our board of directors is our ultimate decision-making body for the alliance, and the seats on the board of directors are split into 50% corporate fee-paying seats and 50% non-corporate seats. So that includes NGOs, labor unions, ifc, etc. Who are not subject to fees but who have an equal vote.
Speaker 1:And we stick with this principle throughout all of our interactions and all of our decision-making processes. We also avoid, you know, in our working groups, for example, any form of majority decision-making, because, of course, it's difficult to create parity in numbers between, you know, corporate representatives and non-corporate representatives, because they are differently resourced and capacitated to engage in these processes. So for that reason, we deploy very specific consensus-making processes that make sure that all the voices are heard and it's not a majority decision-making. And yeah, so we basically adhere to these principles throughout all of our work. And that was the first element to your question.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that's great to hear. So how many members have you got? And I think again, if I, if I listen carefully at the beginning, you've got kind of 80 percent of the body, if you like. And so how many members are we talking about at the moment that are in the alliance?
Speaker 1:So in 2017, when we were founded, we had 19 founding members and about seven years later, we've grown to almost 180.
Speaker 1:And we've become the largest multi-stakeholder alliance in the energy storage space. I believe there's obviously industry associations that are made up almost exclusively of corporates, but we are unique in the way that we cover the full end-to-end value chain, so really being able to generate these insights as they cut across the value chain, but also the global membership. So indeed, you mentioned it, the GBA is politically impartial. We do engage with government entities and we also specifically try to engage with policymakers. In June, we've published a communique calling for greater harmonization and greater collaboration as we're looking to scale these value chains because, as others have also highlighted, including the IEA, for example, geopolitics is posing a major risk to this pace of adoption and and growth of history. So this is, you know, a call. You know that we're joining for greater collaboration and we do have the ability to convene stakeholders that might not otherwise be able to get together in this current climate around the same table and really focus on the same objectives.
Speaker 3:Do you know that's so important? And that's why, right at the beginning, when I said I like the three words alliance is really important. We need that global alliance because surely we're all tackling the biggest and the principal issue, which is carbon in the atmosphere 420 odd parts per million impacting weather patterns, climate change, having progressively bad things happen. But because of where we are with batteries at the moment and EVs and a few other things batteries at the moment and EVs and a few other things yeah, we've got this kind of geopolitics really getting mixed up with tackling climate change and we have to be smart and able to deal with that in the right sort of way. And I know you mentioned the Paris Accord way back. That was great, that was an absolute stake in the ground, a real moment in time. But I think some of that kind of passion and cooperation has has diminished a bit. I don't want to be cynical, but it feels like it has but I think in no other arena than the battery, because it sits as that bridge technology, call it what you will between renewable energy capacity and storage and use and new mobility and electrification of everything. Arguably there's nothing more important. There's lots of important things, but I think it's right up there, right in the top group of things that we have to collaborate on. We can't have a single point of failure, if I can put it like that, either in terms of regional dominance or any particular nation state, etc. Forget all the dynamics of you know where things are today. It's not fair to have, and it's not intelligent to have a single point of failure where one arena dominates almost everything, because if something happens there, then what does everyone else do?
Speaker 3:You know we have to have this alliance and we have to have this balance, don't we? And I'm not trying to dress up the thing of China versus the world, I'm not trying to dress it up in another way. All I suppose I am. The rhetoric should be about how do we make all this work for the benefit of everybody and deal with all the challenge in the meantime. You know you're clearly a highly experienced, very smart individual running, you know, a pretty impressive organization that's growing and there are lots of other very clever people around the world. Um, and you know I don't want to sound like john lennon, you know this give peace a chance and all that you know, imagine. But but we, we have to, we have to work together, don't we? We have to have this alliance, so yeah, I I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think there's a huge risk right now because the battle for the hearts and minds when it comes to evs is not quite won yet. And you know there's obviously been huge inroads, you know, to really make the case, the use case. And you know, even when it comes to, there's obviously a moral imperative, you know, to decarbonize, but I think there's been also significant inroads in terms of just creating comparable products that are attractive to consumers. You know, full stop. But and this is where you come in, as more of an automotive person, you can speak to that much better than I can. But because not everybody wants to buy an EV just because they have, you know, a moral conscience, some just want to buy it because they prefer it as a product and I think there's been obviously huge progress on that front.
Speaker 1:But the sort of wholesale battle for hearts and minds has not been won. There's also a lot of mixed signals, you know, from policymakers in terms of the future direction, of where we're going. So at this point where we're seeing slowdown in demand in certain jurisdictions, it's a really sensitive point to then say you know the one or you know the actors that can actually help us take this to scale rapidly. We're going to exclude, say, you know the one, you know the actors that can actually help us take this to scale rapidly. We're going to exclude them, you know, from today to tomorrow, because we all want to have a domestic battery value chain from end to end in every single major jurisdiction. It's just not a feasible proposition and, you know, if it were, it really puts into jeopardy, you know, the pace of implementation and scale up of this transition and we can't really afford complacency at all. So, by all means, make your value chains more resilient, diversify them.
Speaker 1:That's certainly something that will lead to a more robust industry in the future but, at the same time, don't do it at the cost of slowing down the entire operation, but work with the actors that bring the expertise and the capacity and the scale to do it and, you know, impose the rules of the game, you know, under which you want to collaborate, and I think there is a lot of potential to do that.
Speaker 1:So if we're looking even just at the battery regulation and the battery carbon footprint, if we're looking at a very limited set of requirements, this is already really important in terms of you know, the effect that it's going to have. And we see, you know the actors in question, and in China, we see the companies obviously reacting and trying to decarbonize their supply chains. You know, to meet these requirements and to be able to compete not just on cost but also on these sustainability metrics and net-net, for the industry and for the energy transition, this is all good news. So I think yeah, from my perspective, even if I take off my hat, you know we would 100% always collaborate for collaboration instead of exclusion. And you know just outright competition, you know, at the cost of the speed of implementation, as it were.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, oh, lots of wise words there and you've kind of triggered in my mind. I like to think of myself as a bit of a creative person. I'm a pseudo journalist, storyteller, blah, blah, blah, but I'd like to think I'm quite creative in certainly with words. But I'd like to think I'm quite creative in certainly with words and I think everything you've said so far in this conversation.
Speaker 3:A phrase keeps coming into my mind, now, more so with what you just said a race to the top Rather than, as we see in many, many things, markets as they progress, a sort of race to the bottom.
Speaker 3:You know, who can make the cheapest, fastest that'll do what you're describing and what we do need to see, especially in everything you just you just said, is a race to the top, where everybody is competing to get better, because, because the you know that benchmark, that that thing is going up and up and up, um, and if we can get into that going up and up and up, and if we can get into that cycle, well that's wonderful, isn't it? I mean, that's where in history, human history, you've seen where competition comes in big things, well, dare I say, even like the Cold War, but the Apollo space race, all that sort of stuff that accelerates development, because people, people are having to really think and compete and they feel that competition, but in a good way, because it just helps things go up and up. Would it be fair to say that that what you're trying to inspire is a race to the top?
Speaker 1:yes, I think you have officially, you know, gained a new position as the spokesperson for the gba. I think the one point to be conscious of and that's maybe missing is that the battery industry, and especially, you know, the sustainability champions that co-founded the alliance they're self-imposing these expectations and they actively want to raise the level of ambition. But if we want to really change hearts and minds of, you know, broad-based consumer base, then, you know, shouldn't we also compare, you know, not just batteries with each other, but shouldn't we compare, you know, the environmental footprint of fossil fuel engine vehicles? You know, yeah, good point, because right now we're self-imposing these requirements on the battery industry and there's a lot of will, you know, to do this proactively and to perform better and to take responsibility. Gravity probably quite more significant, including on issues of human rights and governance and corruption. You know when we're looking at oil and gas and I think you know if we want to create comparability in this race to the top, then let's add them to the equation.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow, I mean seriously, you're very good at putting things in a nutshell. Wish I could be as succinct as that. Yeah, that's very important and I think all of that helps trigger us to go on that journey of continuous improvement. But it's always got to be anchored in economics, hasn't it? It's always got to be anchored in, you know, business has got to be able to run and deliver return for shareholders. It's got to sustain the business from the point of view of you know, a business has got to be able to run and deliver return for shareholders. It's got to sustain the business from the point of view of, you know, not running out of money, being able to hire great talent and all of that stuff. But yeah, look, we've only kind of skimmed the surface, even though you've shared an awful lot of what you're doing. But I think it's a good introduction to this organisation that maybe a lot of people aren't aware. But I think it's a good introduction to this organisation that maybe a lot of people aren't aware of, they should be aware of, especially given how you've explained it. I'm very happy and very pleased to have spent. You know what have we got 40, 30, 40 minutes with you and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing more of your engagement, the you know the Alliance's engagement in some of the things I'm involved in. I'll be in Canada at an event called Energy Disruptors Maybe, if you're listening to this, I've already been there and done it and then also after that in Washington DC where there's a conversation about very much actively about responsible mining.
Speaker 3:Um, how do we do it? How does America get this journey right now that it's kind of triggered and accelerated? You know, whatever the outcome of the election, um, I've heard various people say, actually you might think that's going to have a big impact. It won't because, because you know various factors which I'm not going to go into, but, but, but anything you want to say just to conclude, um, because you've shared an awful lot with us. I hope it's been helpful to people to get that sense of well, what is it? What does the alliance do? I think you've explained that very well, um, but do you want to finish on on something just as a final kind of message? Or or, or, or anything?
Speaker 1:um, I think my only final message would be that our doors are open for anybody who is aligned with this vision. You know that our members are sharing, um, we're not a closed-door club. So anybody who can add value to this conversation, you know, and drive progress forward is actively welcome. And you know I would just finish with that call to action, you know and also for companies to not despair in the face of these. You know requirements that are being phased in. I think it is. It is a heavy lift, you know, in the beginning, to mainstream these systems and we are very cognizant of that, and our members as well. But you have to, you know. You shared your imagined quote, but you know, even a journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step right. So I think our members have already taken quite a few steps in that direction and they're marching ahead. And you know we would call for anybody to join them. And really, you know, mainstream sustainability into the battery industry as a growth, instead of trying to retrofit it to some legacy industry.
Speaker 3:Brilliant. Okay, well, look on that note. Yeah, thank you so much for your time. I wish you well. I'm sure anybody watching this, inga is going to wish you well, and we all now know who and what the Global Battery Alliance is, without doubt. So good luck, and I look forward to bumping into you somewhere in due course, because I'm sure that's going to happen. But for now, inga, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, Roger. It's been a real pleasure.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening to the show and make sure to follow Roger on LinkedIn, where you'll discover almost all there is to know about the spectacular electric vehicle revolution.
